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Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 15:29

rambo1 wrote:
rogersh wrote:
dingo wrote:The reduction of the hour in October is not guaranteed and is subject in Deliveries to a National Agreement which will introduce Final Mile Optimisation which has two functions one which replaces A Plus and the other which is the new Geo Route.

The New Geo Route has all the data supplied by ordnance survey which supplies the fire service , ambulance and Police force and covers 96% of all addresses. It is linked to PDA actuals and can be linked to Resouce Scheduler and AHDC as well as pay and the new traffic transformation process.

It is much quicker due to the fact that is has the addresses in and the actual time it takes than it is much quicker than the old geo route. You can click on any street , estate how long it takes as the PDA information is there.

The new Geo Route has been designed to plot a set of walks differently per week or on a seasonal variations which is part of their plan.

Add this to the fact that Royal Mail want to remove some parcels from being delivered on normal deliveries to later and they want later start times again.

Plus Royal Mail are announcing at their capital markets day how they are going to move from a letters company that delivers parcels to a parcels company that delivers letters.

So I would not bank on a further hour just yet , there are significant negotiations to be done before and probably another vote from the members.


Managers ;Your briefing pack Group Communications · February/March 2018 states;

"From October 2019, a further one-hour reduction to the working week, subject to a joint evaluation of factors including ongoing efficiency, implementation of changes from trials in the operation and technological changes"

"5. PART-TIME COLLEAGUES
An increase in hourly rate of pay in October 2018 and 2019 to reflect the shorter working week of full-time colleagues. This is in addition to the pay award for all eligible colleagues.
We will honour our agreements regarding part-time colleagues:"

So if the hour is not implemented in October 2019 then the agreement to part-timers cannot be honoured, Shame that - Or have I misinterpreted or worded it ambiguously.

Of course it can't, part time get pay rise equivalent to full time dropping an hr. This in itself is better for the part timers as they still get the pay rise rate when they are on annual leave or sick, whereas the full timer had no benefit associated with working an hr less in these circumstances, as the are not working. ....may go part time :hmmmm



No, the full timers still get payed the equivalent for 39 hours, even when the working week has dropped to 38 hours....

I could understand your argument if the full timers got an hour deducted from their wage with each hour reduction in the working week.


Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 16:20

greengiant wrote:
rambo1 wrote:
rogersh wrote:
dingo wrote:The reduction of the hour in October is not guaranteed and is subject in Deliveries to a National Agreement which will introduce Final Mile Optimisation which has two functions one which replaces A Plus and the other which is the new Geo Route.

The New Geo Route has all the data supplied by ordnance survey which supplies the fire service , ambulance and Police force and covers 96% of all addresses. It is linked to PDA actuals and can be linked to Resouce Scheduler and AHDC as well as pay and the new traffic transformation process.

It is much quicker due to the fact that is has the addresses in and the actual time it takes than it is much quicker than the old geo route. You can click on any street , estate how long it takes as the PDA information is there.

The new Geo Route has been designed to plot a set of walks differently per week or on a seasonal variations which is part of their plan.

Add this to the fact that Royal Mail want to remove some parcels from being delivered on normal deliveries to later and they want later start times again.

Plus Royal Mail are announcing at their capital markets day how they are going to move from a letters company that delivers parcels to a parcels company that delivers letters.

So I would not bank on a further hour just yet , there are significant negotiations to be done before and probably another vote from the members.


Managers ;Your briefing pack Group Communications · February/March 2018 states;

"From October 2019, a further one-hour reduction to the working week, subject to a joint evaluation of factors including ongoing efficiency, implementation of changes from trials in the operation and technological changes"

"5. PART-TIME COLLEAGUES
An increase in hourly rate of pay in October 2018 and 2019 to reflect the shorter working week of full-time colleagues. This is in addition to the pay award for all eligible colleagues.
We will honour our agreements regarding part-time colleagues:"

So if the hour is not implemented in October 2019 then the agreement to part-timers cannot be honoured, Shame that - Or have I misinterpreted or worded it ambiguously.

Of course it can't, part time get pay rise equivalent to full time dropping an hr. This in itself is better for the part timers as they still get the pay rise rate when they are on annual leave or sick, whereas the full timer had no benefit associated with working an hr less in these circumstances, as the are not working. ....may go part time :hmmmm



No, the full timers still get payed the equivalent for 39 hours, even when the working week has dropped to 38 hours....

I could understand your argument if the full timers got an hour deducted from their wage with each hour reduction in the working week.


The point I was trying to make "So if the hour is not implemented in October 2019 then the agreement to part-timers cannot be honoured" is that if the hour is subject to trials, the reduction in the hour is not guaranteed. Therefore "an increase in hourly rate of pay in October 2018 and 2019 to reflect the shorter working week of full-time colleagues" may not occur.
In that respect the statement "We will honour our agreements regarding part-time colleagues:" is redundant. I assume honour means a promise.. That promise may be broken. But the way it is worded makes me believe they intend to drop full-time to 37 hours in October '19 regardless.

Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 16:54

so what are RM getting out of it all? if there paying the equivalent of 39 hrs for 35 hrs work and increasing pt wages i cant see what the business is gaining?

Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 19:25

leolion855 wrote:so what are RM getting out of it all? if there paying the equivalent of 39 hrs for 35 hrs work and increasing pt wages i cant see what the business is gaining?


The idea is to not increase delivery length further, which would lead to an increased sick bill and lots of strike action. There is only so much a human body can do.

If the indoor work is completely eradicated then we would be left with 8hr deliveries. The shorter working week is supposed to encourage staff to become more efficient, but I've not seen any of that in our office.

It's a great deal for us, get behind it and we'll be on a tasty hourly wage if we manage to get it down to 35hrs.

Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 19:44

It's a great deal for us, get behind it and we'll be on a tasty hourly wage if we manage to get it down to 35hrs.


I can't pay my bills with a tasty hourly rate.
It's take home pay that matters and a shorter working week does nothing to improve that if you're full-time.

The shorter working week protects full-time jobs, that's the message the union should be giving because the members can see straight through the lie that it's a pay rise, it isn't a great deal. It's a necessary deal.

Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 19:51

dingo wrote:The reduction of the hour in October is not guaranteed and is subject in Deliveries to a National Agreement which will introduce Final Mile Optimisation which has two functions one which replaces A Plus and the other which is the new Geo Route.

The New Geo Route has all the data supplied by ordnance survey which supplies the fire service , ambulance and Police force and covers 96% of all addresses. It is linked to PDA actuals and can be linked to Resouce Scheduler and AHDC as well as pay and the new traffic transformation process.

It is much quicker due to the fact that is has the addresses in and the actual time it takes than it is much quicker than the old geo route. You can click on any street , estate how long it takes as the PDA information is there.

The new Geo Route has been designed to plot a set of walks differently per week or on a seasonal variations which is part of their plan.

Add this to the fact that Royal Mail want to remove some parcels from being delivered on normal deliveries to later and they want later start times again.

Plus Royal Mail are announcing at their capital markets day how they are going to move from a letters company that delivers parcels to a parcels company that delivers letters.

So I would not bank on a further hour just yet , there are significant negotiations to be done before and probably another vote from the members.

Is data from the emergency services going to be any more accurate than current data on Geo Route which I believe is sourced from electricity, gas, and telephone lines? The current Geo Route data is known to be widely inaccurate. Could it be that data from the emergency services is based on fire hydrant locations etc.?
A better method would be to get all posties to carry the PDA with them to every doorstep or delivery location for one day. Then RM could have full & accurate data for every walk. If there is a lack of trust for posties to do it properly then the DOM could shadow the postie on each walk for a day then there would be no question of the data's validity.

Shorter Working Week....2019

12 Feb 2019, 20:05

Woody Guthrie wrote:
It's a great deal for us, get behind it and we'll be on a tasty hourly wage if we manage to get it down to 35hrs.


I can't pay my bills with a tasty hourly rate.
It's take home pay that matters and a shorter working week does nothing to improve that if you're full-time.

The shorter working week protects full-time jobs, that's the message the union should be giving because the members can see straight through the lie that it's a pay rise, it isn't a great deal. It's a necessary deal.


It could be argued that we had the pay rise in the Four Pillars which gave us a backdated 5% rise With effect from the 2nd October 2017 & 2% April 2019. The planned hours reduction meant part-timers received another actual wage increase. If the next hour does not materialise then part-timers will not get the promised increase.

Shorter Working Week....2019

13 Feb 2019, 22:49

greengiant wrote:
rambo1 wrote:
rogersh wrote:
dingo wrote:The reduction of the hour in October is not guaranteed and is subject in Deliveries to a National Agreement which will introduce Final Mile Optimisation which has two functions one which replaces A Plus and the other which is the new Geo Route.

The New Geo Route has all the data supplied by ordnance survey which supplies the fire service , ambulance and Police force and covers 96% of all addresses. It is linked to PDA actuals and can be linked to Resouce Scheduler and AHDC as well as pay and the new traffic transformation process.

It is much quicker due to the fact that is has the addresses in and the actual time it takes than it is much quicker than the old geo route. You can click on any street , estate how long it takes as the PDA information is there.

The new Geo Route has been designed to plot a set of walks differently per week or on a seasonal variations which is part of their plan.

Add this to the fact that Royal Mail want to remove some parcels from being delivered on normal deliveries to later and they want later start times again.

Plus Royal Mail are announcing at their capital markets day how they are going to move from a letters company that delivers parcels to a parcels company that delivers letters.

So I would not bank on a further hour just yet , there are significant negotiations to be done before and probably another vote from the members.


Managers ;Your briefing pack Group Communications · February/March 2018 states;

"From October 2019, a further one-hour reduction to the working week, subject to a joint evaluation of factors including ongoing efficiency, implementation of changes from trials in the operation and technological changes"

"5. PART-TIME COLLEAGUES
An increase in hourly rate of pay in October 2018 and 2019 to reflect the shorter working week of full-time colleagues. This is in addition to the pay award for all eligible colleagues.
We will honour our agreements regarding part-time colleagues:"

So if the hour is not implemented in October 2019 then the agreement to part-timers cannot be honoured, Shame that - Or have I misinterpreted or worded it ambiguously.

Of course it can't, part time get pay rise equivalent to full time dropping an hr. This in itself is better for the part timers as they still get the pay rise rate when they are on annual leave or sick, whereas the full timer had no benefit associated with working an hr less in these circumstances, as the are not working. ....may go part time :hmmmm



No, the full timers still get payed the equivalent for 39 hours, even when the working week has dropped to 38 hours....

I could understand your argument if the full timers got an hour deducted from their wage with each hour reduction in the working week.

How can you not get it. Part timers get increased hr wage EVERY week of the yr. Full timers get the same wage with the benefit of a 38hr working week 46 weeks a year. The other six weeks when they're on leave it doesn't matter if they have a 38, 48 or 28 hr working week,, coz they're not........er........working.

Shorter Working Week....2019

14 Feb 2019, 08:29

Tomolo208 wrote:
leolion855 wrote:so what are RM getting out of it all? if there paying the equivalent of 39 hrs for 35 hrs work and increasing pt wages i cant see what the business is gaining?


The idea is to not increase delivery length further, which would lead to an increased sick bill and lots of strike action. There is only so much a human body can do.

If the indoor work is completely eradicated then we would be left with 8hr deliveries. The shorter working week is supposed to encourage staff to become more efficient, but I've not seen any of that in our office.

It's a great deal for us, get behind it and we'll be on a tasty hourly wage if we manage to get it down to 35hrs.



so let me get this right.

To increase delivery hours they want shorter indoor time.
We keep being told that we have less to deliver as we are down 7-10% on letters.
why then do we need longer delivery slots?

Could it be to reduce the delivery workforce by 10% and merge walks?
In an office of 20 people 2 would get the chop saving around £30000 per annum, plus they could get rid of /not replace two vans saving a further £30000.

An efficiency drive is for one thing only and that's to save the business money, it doesnt save money by reducing the working hours and paying the same weekly wage bill
(increased in pt case)

The only way they can reduce costs by working less is by cutting delivery jobs.

Shorter Working Week....2019

14 Feb 2019, 14:53

greengiant wrote:No, the full timers still get payed the equivalent for 39 hours, even when the working week has dropped to 38 hours....


Sorry, No - us FTimers are paid the equivalent of a 38 hour week (not 39) at the new pay rate. The new pay rate compensates by ensuring no loss of earnings is caused by a reduction of the working week.

greengiant wrote:I could understand your argument if the full timers got an hour deducted from their wage with each hour reduction in the working week.


We do.

When we went down from 39 hours to 38 hours we got an hour deducted from our wage, it's just that the hourly rate went up to compensate. At the same time the PTimers hourly rate went up to match the FTs rate, but in their case, it meant an increase in earnings.

Shorter Working Week....2019

14 Feb 2019, 15:29

An efficiency drive is for one thing only......


Yes it is.
It's to increase efficiency.
Nothing increases efficiency like doing 39 hrs work in 38 hrs.
Why would you increase efficiency without saving money?
So you can go to the regulator and say you've done what they asked and the USO is still unsustainable.

Shorter Working Week....2019

14 Feb 2019, 18:28

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
greengiant wrote:No, the full timers still get payed the equivalent for 39 hours, even when the working week has dropped to 38 hours....


Sorry, No - us FTimers are paid the equivalent of a 38 hour week (not 39) at the new pay rate. The new pay rate compensates by ensuring no loss of earnings is caused by a reduction of the working week.

greengiant wrote:I could understand your argument if the full timers got an hour deducted from their wage with each hour reduction in the working week.


We do.

When we went down from 39 hours to 38 hours we got an hour deducted from our wage, it's just that the hourly rate went up to compensate. At the same time the PTimers hourly rate went up to match the FTs rate, but in their case, it meant an increase in earnings.


TBT I was going to post similar. A colleague said to me a while ago "I work 39 hours but get paid for 40"- referring to the last hour reduction - I replied no, you get paid for 39 hours - but the consequence of the hour reduction means the hourly rate has increased. (as for all on the same pay rate/scale)

Shorter Working Week....2019

19 Feb 2019, 09:56

number one wrote:
rambo1 wrote:
number one wrote:
SpacePhoenix wrote:I can see full time DO staff going back to 39hr or possibly 40hr weeks before long.


Why when most 38hr staff only actually work 32-34hrs in my officer now?

Seems your office is stuck in a time warp. When was your last revision? Your honesty saying everyone finishes over an hr early every day? And you do lapsing as well? Jesus I want a transfer. I do 45 hrs to do my '38hr' duty, and don't hang around, although I do take breaks and come in on time, prep d2d in work time and always use a lwt.


Last revision was about 15 months ago. We can be out the door by about 08:30 and finish at 12:00-12:30 paid till 14:30


No one at my office gets back at that time. We are seriously overstretched. Every single duty bar one is over. Unusually the rural duties are worse than the town ones. There is not time for even a single break on those. I think it is why most of my coworkers are seriously stressed and fed up. There is little morale in there.

Shorter Working Week....2019

19 Feb 2019, 15:39

Tuesdays need looking at.

Shorter Working Week....2019

19 Feb 2019, 19:12

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
greengiant wrote:No, the full timers still get payed the equivalent for 39 hours, even when the working week has dropped to 38 hours....


Sorry, No - us FTimers are paid the equivalent of a 38 hour week (not 39) at the new pay rate. The new pay rate compensates by ensuring no loss of earnings is caused by a reduction of the working week.

greengiant wrote:I could understand your argument if the full timers got an hour deducted from their wage with each hour reduction in the working week.


We do.

When we went down from 39 hours to 38 hours we got an hour deducted from our wage, it's just that the hourly rate went up to compensate. At the same time the PTimers hourly rate went up to match the FTs rate, but in their case, it meant an increase in earnings.


Ok, thanks I see where you are coming from now with regards to full time / part time pay and the shorter worker week.

So do you think that the part timers hourly rate should not have gone up along with the full timers?

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